Monday, February 05, 2007

Readers Comments on Shulamit Aloni's Opinion


The author of this article knows very little about education and the importance of giving children a national identity. He still thinks in terms of religion which is mentioned nowhere in our Scriptures and Laws.

We are the children of Israel who need to be taught who we are, what we were, and who we will be. As I have written in past talkbacks, the nations of the world are always reminding us of our identity. Have we learned that no matter how hard we try to assimilate in the ways of the nations of the world, as was done in Germany, they will find us out. No matter whether we wear a skullcap or not, they will know who we are. Let us learn from history. Let's teach history not only as dates, events, and specific personalities. The importance is to teach national history, the national constitution, and to remember the importance of the children of Israel in the world.

No one will get away with hiding, or showing ignorance about those items which make us citizens of this great nation. Disguising will not help.

Everyone must learn who we are, no matter the sex or age of the individual..

al mann , Jerusalem, Israel (01.31.07)

2. A Simple Dictum

There is a simple dictum of our sages that boils down to this: if someone starts speaking about someone in a good way, but then moves on to speak about them in a bad way, we don't believe they meant the good things they said. In other words: its empty rhetoric, and is a pretty good indicator that you've just been accosted with a heady dose of lashon hara - the evil tongue. Such spite. It must be the result of being outclassed.

David , Israel (01.31.07)

3. Way to Go

Kol Ha'Kavod Mrs. Aloni. It is about time someone stand up and put an end to religious coercion in Israel. By cramming religion down peoples throats is NOT a way for secular Jews to become more Jewish. A liberal democracy is about choice. End of story. Sof ha'sipur.

Benjamin , Denver, CO (01.31.07)

4. Shulamit is at it again

OK, let me get this straight: freedom of expression is ok, political or anti-religious indoctrination is ok, as long as it is done by secular teachers or politicians. But oy vey, if somebody religious were to dare to voice an opinion outside of Bne Braq, Shulamit gets afraid for the poor souls of innocent little children? Considering the lack of knowledge of jewish history, jewish thought, jewish religion, jewish anything in the secular school system, with the predictable result of a lack of commitment to the jewish state or nation in those kids when they become adults ..... wouldn't it be far smarter (and probably more cost-efficient) to hand the keys of the entire school system to Mr. Leviev, and send all those apparatschiks from the Education Ministry on a really long vacation?

Sal G. , Passaic, NJ (USA) (01.31.07)

5. Lubavitch is mainstream Judiasm


To teach Judiasm is not missionary work at all. It is Jewish education.

Now in terms of science and so forth, I have no problem promoting a full understanding of scientific pricniples which are very akin to torah principles.

There is always proposed this huge divide between the two, but as I have aged and advanced in both fields, I realize there is much less dispute than most people realize between the two concepts.

In short, I understand his influence to be a positive one that should be welcomed rather than shunned.

As for Israeli science, who is Israel choosing as the Science Minister, and what scientific background does the Education Minsiter have?

Oh one more question: why are the heads of the Israeli state called ministers even if they are women?

These are more serious questions that need to be addressed than Lev Leviv's positive influence towards restoring genuine Jewish influence in children's lives. He is not a missionary, but rather a Jewish educator and contributor, and I think it is high time that his positive influence receive some appreciation.

Steve , USA (01.31.07)

6. Reason for levievs Success ???

People are slowly realizing that the whole Zionist Ideology is bankrupt.

Many of the so called free thinking youth are ending up with drugs failed marriages that is reality.

Is there any question why so many of our youth are returning to Torah true Judaism whether thru Chabad or Or someach etc....

Aloni another encouraging sign that the orthodox will number more than the Aloni type is the population growth. The non- orthodox get married late and have 1 or 2 children. while the orthodox have many more children.

Leviev is a great man and many should learn from the chesed that he does.

Nachman (01.31.07)

7. Ridiculous

I'm interested in how this ccompared to the Jewish concept of of "soul-stealing" when he is in fact proselytizing the same religious and cultural affiliation to which you already identify with. If anything, he is trying to strengthen the Jewish soul.

And I highly doubt Mr. Leilav is preaching no curiosity, no scientific thought etc. Chabad is known for accepting all Jews, despite their level of observance, and I know prominent scientists who are religious jews or Lubavithcers (Yimiyohu Branover, Chaim Grober, and the entire Association of Orthodox Jewish Scientists),

Jews are not a race any more than Christians or Muslims are a race. The fact that we have cultural and ethnic identifiers associated with Judaism is, in the end, irrelevant. Without spirituality, secular Jews in Israel are better classified as atheist Israelis, despite the fact that the Torah will always designate them as Jews.

A little Torah/Talmud study won't hurt the kiddies, Shulamit. Give me a break.

Aviel , San Diego, CA (01.31.07)

8. Jealous?

do i detect some jealousy here?

Yosef , Jerusalem (01.31.07)

9. I must disagree.

I am Israeli (and plan to come back as soon as possible), and I have many friends who are Israeli immigrants to the US. I was brought up a secular Israeli Jew, yet I believe in g-d, I light candles for Shabbat, I fast for Yom Kippur, etc. Meanwhile, I study biology and chemistry, philosophy, mathematics, you name it. Niether negated the other. Some of my friends are not so lucky, and they tell me once and again how they resented religion in Israel, and how they want to start keeping Kosher for example now. Is it brainwashing? Or is it just a pull for some sense of identity? While in Israel, you never question who you are, it never occurs to you you're anything but an Israeli. The moment you step outside Israel, you instantly feel who you are; you are a Jew. If you resent it, and you avoid it or you learn nothing about it, slowly the culture dies you; you assimilate and you lose your Judaism completely somewhere in intermarriage. You say that this is not to point in Israel, but resenting religion is resenting the essence of why we are there. To be a Jew is to have a history and a culture - all of which is propensed in the Torah. I won't preach about g-d to an aethist, so I won't go into our relationship with him, but denying Israeli children education about the Torah is denying them their identity as Jews. I'm not saying turn everyone into a Lubavitcher - that's not my point at all. Nevertheless, it is correct that every Israeli child should have a fundemental base of knowledge of what it means to be a Jew outside the context of Israel. This needs not to have any interference with secular studies - which are obviously imperative and vastly important. Israel was created as a home for Jews. The more we try to push that out, the further away from the point we get.

Shoshana , NYC, US (01.31.07)

10. teaching

To know , yes . to pray NO , NO and NO . Did those prayers help our grand parents when send to their death ? NO . And they were mostly , the East european certainly , praying people . So no need to pray , not every day , nor in all your life .

charles , petach tikva (01.31.07)

11. the author claims to know an aweful lot

Fearing God, loving God, thanking God: No scientific thought, no curiosity, nothing about the value of the human being and human equality – and many more"NO's," as is common in Chabad-Lubavitch schools

does this mean that she conducted some research before writing this article?

instilling fear of God, and inspiring children to love for every Jew (even if he is a scoundrel,) which means arrogance and haughtiness and a broad platform for cultivating hatred for others. We already have legitimate racist parties around here. Is this desired?

loving the good within a fellow jew is bad?

this haughty journalist should be fired


adam , NY (01.31.07)




andrew , miami,fl (01.31.07)

13. Is she still alive...I quess she is like so many coakroaches

Al (01.31.07)



bill handel , brooklyn, usa (01.31.07)

15. Shulamit: Anti-Jewish secular missionary

Shulamit is vomiting the propaganda of the secularists who are trying to destroy Israel as a Jewish nation and convert our country into just another generic Gentilistan. Their goal is to brain-wash our children in the schools so they grow up alienated from mainstream Orthodox Judaism. We already see the degradation in Israel with the epidemic of drug and alcohol abuse, increasing domestic violence, flourishing sex and human slave trade, vast numbers of our women parading in the streets dressing cheap and sleazy. We are commanded to be "a light unto the nations", not just another moral cesspool among the rest of the world's Gentilistans.

Yacov , Ashkelon (01.31.07)

16. I object

as a religious and scientific man with a college degree and years of work experience plus years of yeshiva learning, I must object to the concept that religious reject scientific learning.

I agree that there are those in the religious world who do not want scientific thought in their areas, but I feel that as a person who attended both college and yeshiva, I am two the person of those who only learn secular and not religious thought.

eliezer , jerusalem, israel (01.31.07)

17. Who will keep SECULARISM out?

Please don't let what happened to my country happen to yours.

When Christians founded and moved to America to escape religious persecution (sound familiar?) they had some wolves hiding in the flock. Those wolves brought false and even outright satanic doctrine. See the satanic all-seeing eye on our one dollar bills.

Charles Darwin himself abandoned evolution theory some twenty years before he died.

On every American coin are the words "In God We Trust".

It doesn't say "GOLD". It says "God". But WHICH God?

Now that my country has been influxed with a mass of starving pagans moving here to find a better way of life because their gods have failed them, yet reluctant to release the failure that drove them here, their children are confusing ours with the answer to the above question: "which God?"

The secularists are your biggest threat... for THEY are the enablers.

By pretending to be "moderate" or "liberal" they in fact, secretly display only the most vehement hatred for any matter of intimate faith. They hate your faith as well.

Once they got control over virtually everything in my country, they made it Politically Incorrect to mention God. Now, God has been removed from public life and if you try to put Him back in to curtail the rampant sin/crime, someone ELSE will get to pick which god it will be.

Why does someone want to call themself a Jew if they don't want to do all the Jew-necessary stuff? Why call yourself a Christian if you're not? Secular does not equal Jew. Secular does not equal Christian. Secular = atheist.

An agnostic is just a cowardly atheist who doesn't have the backbone to admit it.

God will give bonus points for you surmising that MAYBE He exists.

PLEASE, OH PLEASE, OH PLEASE, do not let this happen to your country!!!!!!

Maybe then, you can help mine.

May the God of Joshua who founded your country, guide your decisions.

Ima Bleever , Anytown USA (01.31.07)

18. Not sure what the author is offering that is actually Jewish

Shulamit Aloni says: "Jewish identity in the sovereign State of Israel means good citizenship, taking responsibility for one's society, human solidarity, recogniton of human rights, and the development of curiosity and criticism, as well as an urge to investigate, ask questions, and gain knowledge in science and the arts. Jewish identity also means cooperating with other peoples in the country, region, and the entire world."

And exactly how would this be different from American identity, or any other identity in the developed Western world for that matter? You can do all this AND still have something that's substantively Jewish. But if what secular Israelis are offering is nothing more than what would be offered anywhere else, then no wonder so many of them have moved abroad. Too bad she sees it as an either/or. It's not.

Chanya , USA (01.31.07)

19. Yaacov

You are truly obsessed with nice women . In every talk back you talk about women's dresses . Are you not such an ugly female scarecrow jealous of young girls ?

You want to brainwash the secular youth with your prayers . look at my other tb on this subject . And why do you still live in Ashkelon , move to Bne berak , mea shearim or ramat Beth Shemesh . There you will see only nice black coats . Or do even they don't accept you in their midst ?

Alcohol and drug abuse is also a problem in the charidi sector , a special center has been opened for charidi addicts , not without reason . And violence ? what about this women attacked in a bus ? And your fine friends also visit many of those victims of women trade .

So look first what is happening in your community before attacking the builders of this nation .

charles , petach tikva (01.31.07)

20. Democracy teaches us: no one cares about Shulamit Aloni

This clown has been run out of public office and has been rejected by an overwhelming majority of Israelis who disagree with her outlook on life.

The damage that she inflicted on the Meretz party is so destructive that Meretz continues to suffer from her association.

She now is just a bitter old woman that no one cares about. Her thoughts and opinions matter to nobody (except for Charles in PT, maybe). And she has a home here on Ynet.

Besalel , Kew Gardens, NY (01.31.07)

21. Communists at our schools

Moral, spiritual and intellectual retards like Joe Stalin groupie Shulamit should be kept away from classrooms.

Kyle , Southpark, CO, USA (01.31.07)

22. This woman is an antisemitic witch

amir , Jerusalem (01.31.07)

23. Stalin with a dress strikes again

Ron (01.31.07)

24. #19

The last time I checked, the builders of this nation were the kind of people who, when stating their claim to the land, held up the Tanakh (Ben Gurion), and who held bible study classes in the PM's office (Beigin). Shulamit isn't in their league, and would call any PM who did the same today a religious fanatic. She does not, in any way, represent the secular zionists who founded this nation. They're generation was a unique breed who I, as a religious man, can respect even as I disagree with them. Shulamit is a fanatical secularist who wouldn't know the zionism of Israel's founders if it came up and kicked her on her leathery backside.

David , Israel (01.31.07)

25. shulamit you're wrong here

I have been going to a Chabad shul for 10 yeaers, have visited Chabad houses for 30 years--and the "worst" that I've become during these 30 years is a liberal modern orthodox Jew--a far cry from Chabad--and certainly not a missionary --and certainly not a beliver in the messianic claims that some of thsese guyss put on the late Rebbe--as far as I know, the goals of Chabad in Israeli schools would be to instill some ruach, some mitvot, some enthusiasm for being Jewish , some respect for Jewihs religon and tradtions--Shulamit--you were an excellent Minister of Education--but don't be the flip side of the Shas coin--

bob , potomac md (01.31.07)

26. "Missionaries at our schools" - Shulamit Aloni

In Ms. Aloni Op-Ed regarding Mr. Leviev's involvment in the Israeli school system she fails to identify any specifics of Leviev's actual involvement and/or idea's regarding the Israeli public school system. It seems as though Ms. Aloni has a bias toward the fact that Mr. Leviev is A. a millionaire, (billionaire i presume?)and B. Is a religious jew. Using those two characteristics and the fact Mr. Leviev may have spoken with several different city officials, does not mean that Mr. Leviev is attempting to become school's chancellor and or indoctrinate anyone. Please be specific in your veiled criticisms.

Yates , new York, NY (01.31.07)

27. Education does not mean having to observe!

When religion teaches you derech eretz, discipline, good manners, respect, compassion, the difference between right and wrong etc. etc., all the good traits in a human being; I am all for it. That is what our religion teaches us.

I am all for people who are educated in these good traits even if they choose a secular way of living.

I do not and will never appreciate nor understand the likes of Aloni who for illogical reasons fight with all their might to avoid instilling these positive traits in the children of Israel.

Just look at some of the Israeli youth of today that have missed out on such an education.

Yes, there should be freedom of choice when it comes to observing the mitzvot but learning about them can only enhance the quality of a human being.

Ram , London (01.31.07)

28. Anti-Zionist/anti-Semitic scum like Shulamit Alony

should be kept out of classrooms, and out of public eye.

Antonio , Haifa (01.31.07)

29. Lubavitch is Not Mainstream Judaism.

Lubavitch is museum Judaism. But this is beside the point.

Missionaries belong out in the world, in other countries, making Jewish converts and building Jewish peoplehood. The Chief Rabbinate should take a lesson from the Xtians and Buddhists and send rabbis out into the larger world and actively make more Jews. At the same time, Conservative , Reform and Reconstructionist Jews from the Diaspora should be given parity to build their movements in Israel, which is the true mainstream of Judaism in the modern world according to the numbers. All should be invited to compete for the free choice of Jews and goyim everywhere , on a level playing field, especially in Israel, where Jews have been held captive by an orthodoxy that controls and distorts information regarding the other movements. All should also be aware that The Tanach further unfolds in the light of high biblical criticism, which is eschewed in orthodoxy.

Jewish missionaries is an idea whose time has come. No longer should Jews be timid and shy away from this rejuvenating and strengthening activity. Judaism is G-DS gift to the world. It should not be kept in a box only for those born into one form of it, who run the chance of making it stale, unappealing, discriminatory and misconstrued. Judaism needs to be free to breathe, circulate and percolate through the world, like a beautiful fragrance enveloping the world. Remember Tikkun Ha' Olam ?

What good is having missionaries who go nowhere, remaining in the most Jewish country in the world, where everyone is already a Jew in some form ?

We are looking for progress here not regression !

The world may not become Jewish, but there is no reason for it to remain ignorant of civilizing Jewish values. JUDAIZE !!!

RCA , USA (02.01.07)

30. Secularism

Previous talkbacks in favor of Jewish religious education have said it better than I could ever do, so I'll skip that part.

Behind secularists' nice words such as Aloni's, there is an agenda of moral relativism.

Secular education has been a complete failure in North America.

Even though there are cases of inmoral behavior within the religious communities, the fact is that secular education has produced generations of people who have no values, no morals.

Secular education in N. America has been tried and has failed. There is a totally out-of-control epidemic of drug use, alcohol and promiscuity. Children are not learning. They leave school semi-literate.

Israel must not follow that path.

There's an increasing trend for home-schooling or religious schooling, to protect children from secular indoctrination and physical violence.

Nobody is brainwashed by religious education. Children question everything, particularly during adolescence. Religious education and critical thinking are not mutually exclusive.

Michelle T , USA (02.01.07)

31. Jews must uphold Torah law in Israel

I support the religious in Israel and find it offensive that the Israeli school system is so biased against Hashem that they teach apostacy. G-d gave us the Torah and the Jewish people heard and did as commanded. Today there are Jews who have fallen to levels lower than the Israelites in Egyptian bondage, sinning like the goyim and thinking they are cool. When redemption comes their little world will come crumbling down and they realize that they missed the boat. There is still time to do your Teshuva and I recommend you do it soon.

Michael U , SF,CA (02.01.07)

32. shulamit

If anyones children ask them why didn't Palestinian and American Jews do more during the Holocaust to save Jews, just have them read this article and many from Ynet. Yes Charlie and secular sabra, many seculars weren't unhappy to see Hareidim go.

avi , ny (02.01.07)

33. RCA, you're wrong

One of the most prominent Judaic principles is NOT to proselytize Judaism to non-Jews, but to strengthen the level of commitment and observance amongst those who are already Jewish. This is why Rabbis generally try to dissuade candidates from converting at least three times to test their sincerity.

Judaism teaches that all men of all (monotheistic) faiths can pursue a relationship with God, despite whether or not they are Jews. What we need to do is continue to ensure that Jews do not further assimilate or lose touch with their spiritual and cultural identities, and that is one of the main goals of Chabad.

Aviel (02.01.07)

34. #29 Chabad is the only Jewish organization JUDAIZING

RCA, Chabad is the only Jewish organization "out in the world, in other countries, building Jewish peoplehood."

There are Chabad Houses all over the world wherever a Jew can be found. Where are all the Reform, Reconstructionist and Conservative "Jewish missionaries" in Israel and throughout the world? Performing gay marriages, promoting abortion rights, protecting Palestinians from "eeville settlers" and crying about competition from the Orthodox.

Kyle , Southpark, CO, USA (02.01.07)

35. #33- Aviel. Your point is well taken.

RCA , USA (02.01.07)

36. #12- Andrew. Inspiring article. Thanks for the info!

RCA , USA (02.01.07)

37. Brainwashing

It is sad that few of these so called men of G-d know anything about context. Most of the "identity" given to these children have little or no connection to the true words of Torah. Most dati (religious) don't even know the stories of Torah.

If Israel learned Torah in context rather than accepting "blindly" the butchered tidbits cut from Torah text and explained in elaborate off point stories, the world would be a better place and ISrael would be stronger.

Did anyone learn from the Garden of Eden story about how the snake devided words from words to generate evil actions against G-d and truth?

We would be wise to get back to the Pashoot already. Mosses was to do a job of communicating to the people and he did just that. Children should read his words not those of power hungry religions. As it is said You don't need someone to get it for your.

Certainly not someone to brainwash your children and your societies.

One G-d one love.

Give Him an orginal prayer.

Josh (02.01.07)

38. to # 27

We have seen the results of this "education" : charidi faces full hatred , throwing stones , attacking a woman in a bus , and so on . Is this the "good" education ? I prefer another one , and repeat it , to know is good and necessary , but those lessons have not to be brainwashings made by a charidi women .

charles , petach tikva (02.01.07)

39. #38. Consider the education not the action of the exceptions

Ram , London (02.01.07)

40. #19 Charles: Why don't you move to Las Vegas

Prostitution is legal there. The women are encouraged to dress cheap and sleazy as walking billboards for the local pimps. Alcohol and drugs abound and everyone is encouraged to used. The mafia is well-entrenched in the casinos, trucking firms, unions,

drug and sex trades. Kids are dropping out of school daily. Divorce is as easy as getting married in a casino chapel. In summary, you can already enjoy everything the secularists are trying to bring to Israel. You move there.

Those who can't destroy Israel from without are trying to destroy us from within. Your attitude helps them.

Yacov , Ashkelon (02.01.07)

41. education

If someone wants to give his children a religious education , he can do it , there is enough choice , from the mamlachti dati , to the whole range of charidi networks .

If i don't want to act so , i send my children to a non religious school . Rambam , i think he was it , said that one of the greatest mitzwoth is to go to live in Israel . So before you criticise the secular Israelis , make Alyah .

In Galut , were so many of the critics of Shulamit Aloni live , the problem is different . You have to send your children to Jewish day schools , that's the only thing that gives them a better relation to Judaism . Here our History is living , not only written in the tora .

charles , petach tikva (02.01.07)

42. David

I'm not one of those stupids who deny our History , written in the tanach . The interpretation of how some facts occured is the only difference between seculars as i am , and religious people .

I will only add that our grand parents were holding the holy books in their hands when send to their death .This did , very sad to say not help them .

That David Ben Gurion claims on the country were based on the tanach as you write , is possible , but he had my interpretation of history . And most of the 6000 who fell for our independance were seculars , if not anti religious , People . Many of them belonging to the Mapam Kibbutz mouvement , forerunner of Shulamit Aloni's Meretz party .

charles , petach tikva (02.01.07)

43. # 19

actually david, the founders of israel would love shulamit, not kick her out on her back side. the founders of israel only wanted rich, intelligent, enlightened (secular) jews, they kept out the poor, religious, shtetl jews. hungary lost many jews thanks to that outlook. so shulamit and her ilk are just what the founders wanted.

Elisheva B.A. , s. pete fl usa (02.01.07)

44. for #24 not #19, my mistake

that was for david # 24 not 19

Elisheva B.A. , s. pete fl usa (02.01.07)

45. Being religious

The author said:

Jewish identity in the sovereign State of Israel means good citizenship, taking responsibility for one's society, human solidarity, recognition of human rights, and the development of curiosity and criticism, a well as an urge to investigate, ask questions, and gain knowledge in science and the arts. Jewish identity also means cooperating with other peoples in the country, region, and the entire world


All this can be learned from a proper jewish education. Ideally, ti should be "non-politicised", but so long as the child is connected to traditional Judaism and connects her/his own ofspring to traditional Judiasm, then the child or her/his ofspring will eventaully attain those values as tradional observant Jews. Its all in traditional Judaism.

Abdullah (02.01.07)

46. excuse me??!

and i quote, "this isn't done through missionary activity at elementary schools in a bid to steal souls for the sake of religious belief, instilling fear of God, and inspiring children to love for every Jew (even if he is a scoundrel,) which means arrogance and haughtiness and a broad platform for cultivating hatred for others." teaching fear of Gd and love for every Jew, that's horrible! what's israel coming to? OY VEY!

(all said with a heaping dose of sarcasm). what's the matter with this woman? oh yeah, she was raised by and in a secular israeli society which teaches their children from the get go to hate Judaism, to insist that Israel be like everyone else, and to worship traitors to the jewish people on yom hatzma'ut(don't know what i'm talking about? read perfidy). we don't need enemies with friends like her.

Elisheva B.A. , s. pete FL USA (02.01.07)

47. yacov

I did'nt make Alyah to move some years later to a country that is not my HISTORICAL home .

In every country , as one answer , divorce rate is rising . Women are earning their living , and do not need a husband to feed them . If they feel the big love is finished , over , they simply divorce . And don't forget , the rabbanut has to OKay those divorces . In your community this does not happen so much ? those poor women don't dare to talk about the misery they endure . And here i know about what i'm talking .

Women's dresses : again your obsession . I prefer women dressed in a modern way than to see some of those scarecrows living amongst your beloved society .

It's the people as you who try to send us back in the 18th century , in your polish or other east European poor shtetl . Go back to there if you want to live so . Here it's the 21st century .

charles , petach tikva (02.01.07)

48. Biased

Amazing that I am always censured and Charles of israeli occupied petah tikva has the run of the way...... meanwhile charlie all atheists pray when their in a foxhole and bullets are flying

Aloni............. hahahahaha

Israeli Racist , Judea (02.01.07)

49. Ram #27

I agree 100 per cent with you!

Keren , SP-now in Israel (02.01.07)

50. To understand Chabad-Lubavitch thought

gp here:

Don't worry. Their ways are ways of pleasantness. Don't let this author instill false fear in you. The intellegent mind shouldn't have the fear of "brainwashing". and should have the self-confidenve to analyze between that which is True and that which is false.

LEE , NY, USA (02.01.07)

51. I'm sick of secular coercion!!!

Stop proselitizing your secular beliefs in our schools!!

yoni (02.01.07)

52. #48-i m always censored as well,

thats basicly why i stoped reading ynet and switched to jpost -i now open it only when i have less then 3min. to eat a sandwich.

Ynet prefer to publish outrageous hateful talkbacks by terrorists,jew-haters and nazis. Secular sabra is a good example of a hateful talkbacker. They prefer to publish talkbacks that use foul language just to prove themselves as being "objective" and "liberal".

I dont think they actually read talkbacks-they just see the familiar name that has been blacklisted by them and do not publish it-pretty automaticly.I was silly enough to actually write to them...

ive been censored almost all the time on here-and i have never used foul language or called for violence. but as u can see-i do sign that i m from shomron-so that's a red flag:):):):)

ora , eli,shomron (02.01.07)

53. This article is leftest liberal propaganda

It's typical that you would accuse Catholics of brainwashing children. Every one apparently hates Catholics.


54. Charles #41

Are you quoting from the Rambam? Are my eyes seeing right? It's so wonderful to see a secular Jew as yourself state a Torah lesson. Now that you got one Mitzvah right from the Rambam whom you love so much. Let's try another one. He has 14 books on Halachah which covers everything and anything on Midot, Medicine, Repentance, Belief in G-d, Holidays, Shabbat. Marriage, Divorce, Business Relationships, Real Estate, Damage, Kosher, Judicial court system, and the future.

BTW everything he wrote was not his own it was taken from Talmud that was taken from our own special Torah.

Now, what were you saying about who founded Israel and the wonderful not biased courts. Our heritage goes back way before Ben gurion was potty trained. You said it from the Rambam.

If it is a mitzvah and you believe you will be rewarded for it then so be it but that Mitzvah has nothing to do with ben gurion who lived almost 1000 yrs after the Rambam.

Sometimes being in Galut one becomes more religious than being in Israel. NY has so many Israeli communities. Wherever I go in the past 10 years I hear Hebrew. They all are part of different shuls and synagogues that they would never do or be in Israel. So if its a choice of one Mitzvah of living in Israel or 100 in America, I think we will both agree what is better.

BUSH , USA (02.01.07)

55. Lee # 50

Here we talk about children , easy to brainwash them . Remember how children in nazi germany were misused [ lehavdil of course ]. At the end some even denounced their parents . Children are easy to manipulate , and that's the danger .

charles , petach tikva (02.01.07)

56. To # 48 of Judea

You only deserve the second part of the name you have taken . Racist , YES , Israeli , NO , NO and NO . If Petach tikva is occupied territory , since more than 125 years , what about your illegal , for Israel , settlement ?

And don't worry , i will not pray , unnecessary . Our grandparents were praying , to no avail . They were all send to their death .

charles , petach tikva (02.01.07)

57. to # 48

You only deserve the second part of the name you have taken . Racist . Israeli ? i doubt .

If i live in the occupied territory in Petach Tikva , where do you live , in a illegal outpost ?

Praying is absolutely not necessary and even worhtless . Our grand parents were praying , but to no avail . they were send to their death while praying


58. Not like her son Uday

Only a coincidence that she and Saddam have a son with the same name. Don't think so.

Ilan , Ariel (02.01.07)


levi Krol , ramat bet shemesh (02.01.07)

60. #42

I don't deny they were secular, but being secular in Israel in 1948 was a dramatically different thing than being secular in 2006. Their generation had a very different concept of national identity, tradition, and culture than modern Israeli's do. Indeed, if you look at Herzl and Ben Gurion (and others) they were clear they wanted Israeli society and law to be rooted in ancient Jewish values and traditions as opposed to Western ones, though they certainly did not want a halachic state. Any politician today who advocated the same thing - a supreme court who cited Jewish texts and thought as opposed to the US Supreme Court or Euro-humanism, for instance - would be labeled religious fanatics (even if they were definably secular, or merely traditional). And I note you responded to my comment on ben gurion while completely ignoring my comment on beigin. I suspect there's a reason for that. Secular Israelis today want to appeal to the authority of a generation who would fight them to the bitter end on a vast array of ideological and cultural issues. You'll just have to get over the fact that most of those secular boys who died in 1948 (a straw man on your part, incidentally) didn't die for the values modern secular Israelis are all hot and bothered about. They died for a very different vision. One that I, a religious man, might disagree with on some (but not all) levels, but that I understand and respect nonetheless. I do not, however, respect moder secular israeli values and visions. They're a different thing entirely.

David , Israel (02.01.07)

61. brainwashing

all education is a form of brainwashing - we all choose to educate our children to the values we find important to us - this is how we pass on what we feel is the "correct" way to live. to call one form of education or another brainwashing denies the fact that we are all, all of us, biased in what we teach our children, bring into our homes, and allow as "normative" behavior. there are always those who maintain that brainwashing is what the "other side" does to the kids - take a look at what you consider important to allow into the schools!

leiba , israel (02.01.07)

62. David # 60

are you kidding me

i even heard that the knesset used to say a perek of Tehillim before they started their sessions. That is ben gurion and all the zionist fighters. Today it could and would never happen. So do they really look up to their ancestors or founders of Israel. I don't think so. Only Charles looks up to the Rambam.

BUSH , USA (02.01.07)

63. Bush

You see , i know some , small , things about religion . I was wondering why you did not ask me if i'm doing also other mitzwoth . In my eyes maybe , in your , probably not many . But that's not important for me , your opinion .

Regarding Alyah , i think the place for a Jew is HERE , not in NY , even you have many places to pray there . I , a secular MADE ALYAH , and you ? Don't tell me Terutsim , there are no excuses for a Jew , certainly a religious one , not to live in this country . But maybe it's better you stay there , we have already enough religious fanatics .

Ben Gurion lived 750 years after the Rambam [ 1138-1204 ]

charles , petach tikva (02.01.07)

64. Bush

I'm not waiting for a reward for making Alyah , i did not even think it's a mitzwa .The pleasure to live in a country that is HISTORICALLY mine , that's it .

charles , petach tikva (02.01.07)

65. David

Regarding Menahem Begin . I said already that knowing our history is necessary . No special reason for not commenting on what you wrote .

The founders of the state had not such fanatic charidi people against them . The religious where orthodox , but not charidi extremists [ certainly not much ] And you know , one extremist brings an opposite one . If there were not such right wing fanatics , or religious fanatics , there would be less secular and left fanatics .

It's only by seeing how some charidi behave , that i became more and more opposed to them . If you want to be tolerated , be tolerant . If you want to be respected , respect others . If you want to exercise your rights freely , let the others have the same rights .

I do not remember who said : i'm opposed to your ideas , but i will fight for your freedom to express them . [ not all ideas of course , there are limits , in every democratic country too ]

charles , petach tikva (02.01.07)

66. Charles

you just said in tb #41 from the Rambam that it is a Mitzvah and now you did not think it's a mitzvah. It seems to me you are a very big anav. That when you do good deeds you are not doing it for reward. Hey you might get double for being so good.

Regarding living in Israel I wish I can brag about how much I love it but i only lived there for 2 years, so while you have a bigger zechut for living there longer, there would not be much for me to say except that i miss it very much and the most I get out of it are keeping up with the news and talking to people from there.

Now let me teach you a Torah lesson I once read up. One who walks 4 amot (about 2.5 meters) in Israel, his sins are forgiven.

BUSH , USA (02.01.07)

67. David

If i forgot to mention Begin , in my first answer , what's about you not reacting to what i wrote regarding our grand parents ? this is not an accidentally omission , you can not answer , there is no acceptable one for a secular .

charles , petach tikva (02.01.07)

68. Keep chabad out of schools!

They should be banned from schools and from bothering people in public with their nonsense.

The left should be banned from schools with their anti-zionist nonsense.We do not need our children to be taught to love their enemies.

jason white , afula,israel (02.01.07)

69. Charles

I forgot to mention I am not such a fanatic, you see I don't throw stones at on coming cars, I throw soccer balls.Also I don't beat up my wife unless she starts. And I don't attack anyone on a bus unless they are sitting in my favorite seat. Now am I invited to Israel.

Relax Charles as long as the religious ashkenaz and sephardim are not doing to eachother what Hamas and fatah are doing then you know there is something right about the Jewish religion and there is no reason to generalize all Haredim because of LITERALLY a handful of wackos.

BUSH , USA (02.01.07)

70. Charles #65

Interesting statement. Somewhat true but although 2 wrongs don't make a right I want you to prove to me that the ones who came extreme first were the religious. You see extreme works 2 ways.

It is much easier to prove that in the early years of the state the govt who have the upperhand over Haredim then and now became more extreme in their secular views tearing families away from tradition like they did with Yemenites than to believe that the Haredim in the early yrs who were really a tiny minority compared to now had the power to force their ideology on the seculars to become more religious.

Did they stop reading Tehillim in the knesset because the Haredim asked for a lengthy Torah class. Did they start gay parades because the Haredim were murdering gays like they do in arab lands.

Prove to me that all the seculars then were fair and democratic for one to practice their religion, like they let us openly in America and then I will stand on your side and fight against the Haredim. I am so confident you cannot prove it because whatever you say I will bring up the yemenites. It is one wrong thing to teach yemenites in school to become more secular but why did they kidnap them and tell the parents in cold blood they died to drop them off in a secular home.

Charles would you not become an extreme haredi if your relative was kidnapped from you and put up for adoption because you were too religious.

BUSH , USA (02.01.07)

71. to #34 Chabad is not kosher!

I worked for a year and a half at two chabad schools.They teach the children to not serve in the I.D.F.

The principal announced on Holocaust Memorial Day and Heroes and Martyrs Day not to stand for the siren! Independence Day is a regular day for them.And like arab schools they do not fly the Israeli flag,just the chabad rag.

I saw and heard them calling females soldiers filthy names.Names that belong to their mothers and sisters.

jason white , afula,israel (02.01.07)

72. To Steve (#5)

Why shouldn't women be "ministers," in your view? Is " to minister," which means "to serve" or "attend to the needs and wants of others," a strictly male activity?

Jasmin , Haifa (02.02.07)

73. Other sort of missionairies!

When I saw the title of this article, I thought, Oh no, not those disgusting `Jews for gsus`-types! Bleghh! If you ask me, this kind of "missionairy" is GREAT! Peepz, when you comment about this kind of missionairy, you should focus on non-Jewish missionairies!!!! This kind of missionairy, could better be called, the strenghtening of Jewish lives.

John , Amsterdam, Holland (02.02.07)

74. Charles, not all Haredim are fanatic

Let's not forget that many of them serve in hospitals that have gone on strike, they are the first to arrive at the bloody scene of suicide bombers to help the wounded and to collect body parts.

You also cannot take away the fact that they preserved the Jewish heritage during 2000 years of exile.

Many are now actually beginning to serve in the IDF and are undergoing significant change and will be indistinguishable from other Jews in the near future. Even now a large percentage of our physicists, biologists, mathematicians and doctors are observant Jews. So to classify ALL Orthodox Jews as useless fanatics seems totally uncalled for.

Beth Landau , Tel Aviv, Israel (02.02.07)

75. insanity personified

this womans face should be put in the dictionary under the definition of dumb.

standash , calgary canada (02.02.07)

76. Beth Landau # 74

You are right , and i never denied it .

In the Charidi community there are fonderfull people . Sad to say , and that's always so , with every topic , the good sides of people do not make headlines . Only the bad . But are they more tolerant towards seculars ? Do they respect their ideas ? Or simply , do they respect them ?

An example of no information :

On 18 th January there was a splendid commemoration in Paris to honour the French Righteous . President Chirac made a fantastic speech , condemning antisemitism . Did you hear this ? Only one line in an article talking about the condemnation of a racist . Nothing on the radio , exept in the French language news bulletin of Kol Israel .

charles , petach tikva (02.02.07)

77. Bush and New york

It seems to me that you are proud to live in New York , because you hear much Hebrew speaking people , and you have a vast choice of Synagogues . Are you also proud of the high % of mixed couples ? As you have lived two years here , you probably speak Hebrew . Your children too ? And the other religious ? are they speaking Hebrew ? No , they don't . Lashon Kodesh .

In the town where i lived , in galut , more than 90 % , maybe 95 , of ALL jewish children receive a full time Jewish education , the seculars also ! My children went to such a school from kindergarten , till age 18

When my youngest was 11 , she had already been here 3 times , and then made a 3 weeks long school trip to Israel . And both of my children spoke a good Hebrew [ not as the Sabras of course ] And this brings also that there are not so much mixed couples as in the town you like so .

I'll tell you , in Galut where you live , and i lived , you have to give your children a Jewish education . Here we are in the midst of Jewish History . Every street corner in Jerusalem and other places are the evidence of this . You can be Jewish without praying or your secular children beeing brainwashed by Chabad teachers .

charles , petach tikva (02.02.07)

78. Bush , and the Temanim

This was a sad , very sad story , i knew it .

Let me tell you that this was NOT on the agenda of the political parties . Not of the secular , nor of the religious . They , being members of the government shared also the responsability for this . And so nobody was talking about . The Temanim were considered as second class citizens , and not taken in account . So giving this fact as argument for extremism is wrong . I have lived some months in Rosh Haayin . As you maybe know , a vast quantity of Temanim live there . I have not seen many of those black suits there . They are religious , yes , but not those charidi extremists [ not all charidi behave badly ]

The Shas party was created in 1984 , they founded this party because the other charidi did not give them enough places . Again this disrespect for the Mizrachim by the Ashkenazim .

So telling that the case with the Temanim was the base of charidi extremism is , at least , wrong .

I'm of Ashkenazi origin , so not biaised in my opinions .

Have a fine Shabbat

charles , petach tikva (02.02.07)

79. Bush abiding the Law

I believe you . Since your precedent mair of New york issued a "zero tolerance" towards crime you certainly will not dare to do what your friends are doing here . And here they stay , mostly , not punished . Even when they injure passers by or police officers !

charles , petach tikva (02.02.07)

80. Keep CULTS out of schools!!

These are NOT mainstream Jews.My God just look at them!!WHO in 2007 dresses like an 18th century Polish peasant??What Jew believes their "rebbe" is the messiah??Please keep these strange and dangerous fanatics away from your children.

Jewish CANADIAN , Toronto Canada (02.02.07)

81. # 80 keep cults out of schools????


82. Millionaire try Billionarie


83. Brainwashing?

FYI the actual Jesuit motto is "Give me a child until he is seven and I will give you the man," a sentiment first stated by Francis Xavier.

The author of this piece twists the meaning of this considerably.

Izzy Bee , Jerusalem (02.04.07)

84. Go Lev, Go!!

That's the spirit.

David , London (02.05.07)

85. Billionaire

Gveret Aloni:

Mr. Leviev is more 'precious' (as you like to call him) than you make him.

He's a billionaire not a millionaire.

Reader , Jerusalem, Israel (02.06.07)


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